Report 326
Report #326 Skillset: Runes Skill: Rad Org: Geomancers Status: Rejected Feb 2010 Furies' Decision: We do not find this to be necessary. Problem: Rad is a skill that makes the target teleport to a random adjacent room. Using staffsling, it can be done from one room away to pull people in a similar fashion to wisp or beckon. However, it does not have the restrictions of wisp (forest terrain/dryad) nor beckon (stopped by anything that stops walking, such as blocking or any form of prone/offbalance). Instead, rad used to be balanced for levels 99+ by insane summon resistance from size 25, but now that that is gone, the only disadvantage to it is that the room it shoots to is random (and that is not much of a disadvantage since it can just be done repeatedly). These days, you have two options when fighting rad. One is to raise a shrine and use shrine distort (not a realistic counter for obvious reasons), the other is to stay shielded at all times when in range of rad. However, rad lends itself to getting around even this since not only can it be spammed against the shield for no cost until the person does something aggressive (and let's face it, in combat they'll need to eventually), but people can be sent in to raze shields and then themselves be radded out to safety (since it is not stopped by prone or offbal like chaindrag/beckon). Solution #1: Make the rad teleportation stopped by monoliths since it's considered magical transport. Solution #2: Make rad equivalent to a forced walk in a random direction, so it would be stopped by anything that stops walking. Solution #3: Change the function of ranged rad to switch the places of the slinger and target. True this will upgrade rad's reliability, but obviously it also makes it riskier. Player Comments: ---on 2/20 @ 22:54 writes: I like solution 1 the most. Makes the most sense. I would even consider solution 2 great also. As for solution three, rad is sometimes used in group combat and switching places may be bad for the person it is hitting by summoning them in the raiding group while the caster can just walk back. I def would go with 1 and 2! ---on 2/20 @ 23:19 writes: I think Solution 1 would be good. Solution 2 would mean prone/offeqbal stops it, so I can't see it being very useful at all. Solution 3 would run into problems in a demesne, or when the slinger is in the same room as the target. ---on 2/21 @ 00:38 writes: Solution two would be a weaker beckon, kind of... nah. Solution 1 probably seems best here. Maybe add that it stops if there is a monolith in the radder's room as well? ---on 2/21 @ 02:44 writes: For solution three, what would happen in the case of infused rad, or flinging at somebody in the same room? Solution 1 seems to be the best choice still, though. ---on 2/21 @ 03:00 writes: This is a must. Agree. ---on 2/21 @ 22:17 writes: I echo Lehki's question about an infused rad as well. Would monoliths stop it from firing if dropped in the room for the first proposition? ---on 2/22 @ 02:51 writes: Solution 3 affects only ranged rad. In room rad and fused rad are left as is. ---on 2/22 @ 02:52 writes: And to Viynain's question, solution 1 means monoliths would stop any sort of rad teleportation from starting in that room, including fused rad. ---on 2/22 @ 21:20 writes: It's been pointed out to me that besides Rad, the only tool the communes have for beckoning is wisp, which only functions if the adjacent room is forested (something unlikely to happen if the opposing force has a melder.) Options 1 and 3 would leave both Serenwilde and Glomdoring without a viable tool for playing the summoning game, allowing the cities the possibility of picking off opponents one by one without any real chance of recourse. Option 3 in particular seems like it would relegate Rad to utter uselessness. If the issue is resistance, wouldn't it make more sense to just up resistance to Rad? ---on 2/23 @ 07:08 writes: All organizations have access to rad. I think this balances it in and of itself. ---on 2/24 @ 02:31 writes: Rad is not a Commune ability. It is available to both Mages and Druids and therefore has little to do with Communes vs. Cities. Interestingly enough, the Night skillset already has a counter to Rad called Bonds. Thus, I don't see how anyone can argue that a feasible counter to this skill "isn't fair" for Communes when Serenwilde already has to face off against Glomdoring with no counter of its own. Likewise, Beckon can be easily stopped by blocking found in both Athletics and Beastmastery (Has been confirmed like Athletics, beasts may also use the "firm" verb (block firm) for those). ---on 2/24 @ 10:41 writes: It's a commune issue because, unless I'm forgetting something, Rad is the only effect the communes have which can't be 100% prevented to summon someone from an adjacent room (Wisp is blocked by the opposite side having a competent melder.) If the monolith change went through, Rad could also be 100% blocked, but Beckon would still work through it, and however small the chance would be for it to succeed, some chance is much better than no chance at all. Given how often two large groups end up sniping at each other from adjacent rooms, that'd be a fairly substantial imbalance. On the subject of Bonds, it does negate Rad both coming in and going out of the room in question, so any runeslingers are going to be useless, but if Serenwilde needs a similar skill for the sake of balance, I'm open to that discussion. In the meantime, given that Rad's easily stopped by shield, it's a skill that's available to all powers, and that the solutions provided would either imbalance things or render Rad entirely useless, I'll argue that the proposed changes are unnecessary. ---on 2/24 @ 14:27 writes: Beckon is just as easily stopped as wisp (block firm is "100%"), and there are smart ways to make a wisp setup that don't include kamikaze dryad trees. I consider wisp and beckon to have roughly equal potential, and that's not even including wisp being totally bananas on the ethereal plane. Rad is not easily stopped by shield, for the reasons already explained in my report. The main issue here is not cities, communes, or bonds. It's about one broken skill called Rad. ---on 2/24 @ 14:37 writes: Also I'd like to add that monoliths would not make Rad "entirely useless," it would just add a realistic counter. If you notice, there is currently a report 314 up to nerf a skill that is stopped by monoliths. Also, just this past sunday during wildnodes I got quite a few kills planar summoning into my demesne, also stopped by monoliths. (Unless you're talking about a different solution. I just assumed it was monos because that's the most popular choice at the moment). ---on 2/26 @ 12:05 writes: Report 326 comment Agree with Thul - just increase the chance to resist it. Making this reliant on monoliths sends up flags for me about continued inequality in enchanters/disenchanters between cities and communes. I foresee things like flamed monoliths in every room in an area that city sides can remove at will but commune sides cannot due to the fact that tinkering is comparably lousy and less available than city spellcraft. Please find a solution that is not reliant on trade skills. ---on 2/26 @ 18:28 writes: Increasing resistance to Rad isn't going to solve the problem. The change Fillin speaks of resulted in demigod resistance going from 90+% to under 20% for more classes. Likewise, tradeskill volume is a poor argument to make. The active practitioners of tradeskills available to an organization at a specific time are in constant flux. If it comes down to it, there are many active Harbingers in Glomdoring who have the ability and -potential- to take enchanting. Also, the core issue of this report is that abilities that caused forced movement should have feasible, viable counters. Making someone 10% more resistant or so across the board isn't going to address this problem. ---on 2/26 @ 18:57 writes: Right, when I spoke of summon resist being the counter before, I meant it was actually possible to get over 100% summon resist. ---on 2/26 @ 23:31 writes: That seems rather unlikely, Narsrim. I'm rather curious who the "many active Harbingers" are. Regardless, there are 3 guilds out of 5 in Celest / Magnagora that have the -potential- to take enchanting, and one guild out of 5 in the Communes with the -potential- to take enchanting. That's a pretty large gulf right there. Monoliths as a blocker seems extremely oriented towards the cities, especially as Mages can take both Runes and Enchanting. ---on 2/26 @ 23:58 writes: The changes to summoning resistance were made because 100% resistance was too much. Why is something that would provide the same 100% resistance (monoliths) being considered? Solving this with enchantments doesn't seem like the right answer, as despite the above claims, cities have 3 guilds that can take enchantment to communes' 1 - making the amount of people who can provide and remove the conditions for the proposed defence inherently unequal. What about finding a solution in the runes skill itself (equally available to all)? Maybe infused rad could significantly increase summoning resistance for everyone in the room? ---on 2/27 @ 07:30 writes: 100% summon resistance was broken, but not because it stopped rad, heh; old size summon resist was the pretty much the only reason rad has been tolerated for so long. And while there's more guilds in cities that can take enchanting, does that mean you can look at a skill that's stopped by monos, summon for instance, and say it favours cities? That kind of argument is a bit of a stretch imo. ---on 2/27 @ 09:45 writes: I'm not opposed to creating a condition for rad as exists for wisp or beckon (is there one for ninukhi?) where the ability is temporarily not effective, I'm just saying that condition shouldn't just be monoliths, which can be flamed to become effectively permanent against a side that is predisposed to have fewer disenchanters. If the counter for beckon were some readily available potion that stayed as a permanent effect in the room until removed by a master alchemist, that would seem silly, no? I'm in agreement that the problem needs a solution, I just don't think it should be -this- solution. ---on 2/27 @ 09:54 writes: Stretch or not, as I believe is being mentioned above: rad provides a more equal form of actually separating groups that is available to everyone regardless of the organization. People seem to be forgetting that with changes to rad, the summoning prowess of the communes is severely cut down as willowisp's terrain and dryad dependence is laughably weak compared to the city beckon. Having two wispers on one side will not bypass the shield stop for the ability, but two beckoners can and will bypass the 'block' for beckon. Not to mention throwing in chaindrag skews that little balance even more, I don't think that the change would be as beneficial in a balance than is being suggested. ---on 2/28 @ 09:30 writes: Sure. I can't change the solutions now, but I would be perfectly fine with a potion you pour in a room to stop rad and can only be removed by alchemists, as Talan proposes. I'm sure that if the need is great enough, our bard guild will produce more active alchemists. ---on 2/28 @ 09:57 writes: And Viynain is correct that rad is a method for all organizations to split groups, and as he implies it is more effective than wisp and beckon. That's what this report is about: rad is more effective, to the point of absurdity I daresay. However, I disagree on the notion that a nerf to rad targets the summoning capabilities of communes more. Wisp is by no means a gimp skill as Viynain claims. It's arguably overpowered on the ethereal plane, and still quite useful outside of it. For example, wisp is not stopped by prone or offbalance, so you can use it to pick off someone who's actively fighting (something beckon has no hope of doing). While it can be soundly defeated with terrain change, beckon is by no means harder to stop. Block firm is 100% and available to absolutely everyone, since the skill is included in beastmastery. Even if you don't have that, sitting is 100% effective for beckon from any direction, and if you need to stand up and do something, you can do that since beckon won't work while you're off balance! Same goes for chaindrag; unlike rad, you're actually safe doing an action that breaks shield because it can't grab you while you're off balance. ---on 2/28 @ 10:15 writes: Lastly, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding how Glomdoring guild envoys can argue so strongly against something that stops rad in a room when Glomdoring actually already has just that (Bonds in Night). Perhaps it's also inappropriate that Bonds stops rad? I personally disagree and think counters for rad are a good thing (though of course one that's exclusive to just one org isn't going to suffice for everyone). However, if this report is rejected (god help us), I can only assume that these same Glomdoring envoys will stick to their guns and argue just as strongly that Bonds should not stop rad. ---on 2/28 @ 15:21 writes: I'm seeing you making a sweeping statement that doesn't seem to have a huge basis in fact, Ceren. We, as envoys, are arguing against Monoliths being a blocker. We actually suggested some other things that could be used as blockers, or as resistance-uppers, or what have you. I'm seeing a large amount of opposition to Monolith sigils being the stop, for what are (I feel) quite obvious reasons. Trying to paint that as sweeping opposition to any change seems kind of weird. ---on 2/28 @ 20:53 writes: I'm confused. I never said there was outright opposition to all ideas. In fact, I quite like Talan's anti-rad potion idea! ---on 2/28 @ 22:32 writes: You stated the following in your most recent comment: "Lastly, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding how Glomdoring guild envoys can argue so strongly against something that stops rad in a room when Glomdoring actually already has just that (Bonds in Night)." Especially as the only opposition really seems to be to Monolith, where the reasons were already explained for that opposition. There is an opposition to ideas that seem unfair, you are correct-- so, perhaps you did not mean this statement, and you really do understand? Regardless-- I don't think that the solution should be Monoliths. Period. There are other ideas to work with. (However, I'm also not of the opinion that it would be all that fair for it to be a skill restricted solely to alchemists, since it is rather unfair in the opposite direction). ---on 2/28 @ 22:56 writes: Still don't understand. You quoted me saying I don't understand how you can be against monoliths stopping rad unless you're also against Bonds stopping it. How does that equal me saying there is opposition to all rad nerfs, and why is that even relevant to begin with?